Alabama Snake Handlers?
Arit now you are getting into some of the reality of Christianity that they do not want to talk about. You also see why I am, like a growing number of people in the world are, so concerned about this myth-cult and its civilizational threat. (Remember they have there fingers on the trigger of the worlds largest number of nuclear weapons – and to quote George Bush is being led by Jesus ) Your mosque is absolutely correct there are Christians that do handle snakes in Alabama in religious services. I am not sure whether Robbie’s specific church believes or practices this in Eufaula but it certainly does occur with evangelicals in that region.
They often quote the Book of Mark and the Book of Luke to support this insanity:
“And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover”. (Mark 16:17-18)
“Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.” (Luke 10:19)
In Alabama a few years ago one of the more prominent Baptist Christian ministers died during one of the snake handling services, John Wayne “Punkin” Brown (pictured above). The members though insist that it was not due to the fact that a large rattlesnake wrapped around his arm bit him, but that he actually had a heart attack. You can come to your own conclusions about that.
After that incident though the state passed a law against this and now charges a 50 dollar fine per sermon when poisonous snakes are used- but note it does not currently enforce this.
This is largely thought to be due to a recent republican governor of Alabama, Pastor Guy Hunt who by the way was a Baptist minister( the same church Robbie is from) and passively supported this practice among churches in northeast Alabama.
The use of poison you mentioned is likely strychnine or a version of commercial rat poison that has the chemical in it. Again, this as well is true and is practiced in these churches. This often accompanies the handling of rattlesnakes in the service as they drink the poison publicly in large doses, that should kill them, and hold the rattlesnakes while preaching services that require the congregants to accept Jesus to be saved.
Women get very excited and wave their hands in the air and some collapse such as these pictured from a church in Henry County Alabama.
A really good well written book on the subject, if you wish to know mor, is by Birmingham native Dennis Covington, Salvation on Sand Mountain and I highly recommend it. He has historical family ties to this practice and was previously a New York Times reporter.
This practice seems at present to be confined at present to Holiness, Pentecostal or Baptist denominations of Christianity although there are a few unaffiliated churches in the Birmingham area have adopted the practice in recent years.
From the best I can tell a lot this renewal in snake handling centers around a dispute among Baptists and Pentecostal denominations on changes they have made to their own bible. Both accept literally as the word of G-d although they are not sure what is authentic and not at times.
In this case, snake handling, there is a section in Mark specifically that is referred to as the “Marcan appendix”. In the bible they both use they revised with a new edition in 1951 and deleted the quote mentioned above.
The argument was that this segment (called the “long version”) was added by a third century AD scribe to make Mark’s narrative conform more with Matthew and Luke by including Christ’s appearances to Mary Magdalene and the disciples.
These verses still appeared to many to be out of parallel, narrative-wise, with the particular ascension stories provided in the other two synoptic gospels, Matthew and Luke, and particularly in Christ’s mentioning of the five signs: casting out of demons, speaking in new tongues, the taking up of serpents, the drinking of deadly things, the laying on of hands to heal.
Additionally the most ancient versions of Mark end with 16:8 and do not include any reference to Christ’s risen appearance to Mary
Magdalene and to the disciples, thus also deleting the evangelical mandate “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature” and all that follows relative to the “five signs,” Mark 16:17-18. Codex Sinaiticus is the only ancient Greek manuscript that contains the entire New Testament, and it does not include the Marcan Appendix.
In addition to the five signs passage not being included in the other two synoptic gospels, John’s gospel doesn’t include it either; however, in John, Acts, Corinthians I and II, and elsewhere there are statements about Apostolic actions being supported by “signs,” referenced in a general way, but not by the specific five signs mentioned in Mark 16 or what they term the Marcan appendix.
But as is typical with Christianity, the politics of biblical editing wins out and not any form of independent scholarship, and when the New Revised Standard Version was re-published in 1989, the scholars/editors of these denominations placed Mark 16:9-20 back into the main flow of Mark.
This return of the Marcan appendix many believe has been in response to the loud outcry that in 1951 arose from Pentecostals, Baptists and other “practicing the signs” groups primarily located in the American south, condemning the Mark omissions, both of the “five signs” passage and the “Go into all the world . . .” mandate, which can be found elsewhere in the Gospels.
The most vocal among those are in Robbie’s region where they, for some mysterious unknown reason, like to have poisonous snakes wrapped around their arms while preaching about how the rest of us are going to hell if we do not accept their Christ. Of course this is …if you believe in Jesus.
Remember my Muslim friend, these are the same people that are calling Islam crazy and misled…so my advice is to take that with a grain of salt and be very wary.
Moshe
Robbie
idnami
Hunter Wallace
Is this supposed to be wrong? Am I missing something?
This is serious and real. Maybe you now understand a bit why people are rightfully suspicious and frightened of this type of religion.
Every religion has sacred customs and rituals that look bizarre to outsiders but make perfect sense to those who practice it. This is not very different from what fakirs do in India for similar purposes. And criticizing a religion for taking things literally is hardly a good move for someone whose religion depicts God as if He were human.
This is insane…tell me please that this is a joke?
What the hell? These people are insane. Im scared to even drive across Alabama now.
Martin
No amount of rat poison and rattlesnakes could be scarier to me than Martin’s reaction to this.
If this practice installs fear in you, then you completely missed the point.
Rita
This is the same place where they have lynched so many black people and they even made pictures of the corpses into postcards and mailed them out to family and friends.
I do not think it is unreasonable to fear for my family’s safety when driving through a region like this. We are planning a vacation drive to Florida but I assure you we will drive around this crazy place.
This as well should make anyone who is walking into a building with a cross on top and think about what this really symbolizes.
This is frightening!
martin
To dispel fear one must confront fear. When one confronts fear in the form of lethal danger one must go into an altered state of mind. In that altered state of mind there is no fear and one is immune to anything (metaphysics 101). The slightest amount of hesitation for even just a second can result in death and it sometimes does. Similar practices are done all over the globe.
There are a lot worse things to fear than Christians speaking in tongues and drinking rat poison with a rattlesnake in their hands. A wise first step would be to get over your fear of such Christians. You all must have had a very charmed life if such things scare you.
Martin if you are scared to drive across Alabama because of past lynching of blacks and photography, that is fine. If one lives in the past then past becomes one’s present. I don’t get though what it all has to do with the practices described above. There are similar and scarier rituals practiced in places where they don’t lynch black people because they themselves are black people.
John is also from Alabama. I think it kind of shows, doesn’t it?
John
Praise Jesus all!
Thank you for inviting me my Jewish brother.
What readers need to understand in their head to know why some of our brothers use rattlers is this confirms the Holy spirits presence. You see when a man stops this foolishness of trying to figure the world out he can come to the Lord Jesus. When this happens even a rattler’s fangs cannot touch him or rat drink kill him.
The pictures of these white folks may seem strange to some but what you seeing brothers is the holy spirit in action!
Amen!
John I am going to pray for you boy and all our Jewish brothers for we have had this talk and I know the jews must accept the the Lord Jesus before armageddon comes down on us. You boy I be worried about.
So praise Jesus and white man dont be scared of Alabama we love Jesus down here and the past , yes it was this way but we colored folks have put a stop to that with the good Lords help and what Dr. King done.
Come on down here boy, and we will put the fear of the Lord in you!
Rev. Allen
The True Love Baptist Church
Rev. Allen,
Don’t you think that putting a stop to the lynching of black people is far greater evidence of the holy spirit than some tricks with rattlesnakes? The KKK is a hell of a lot scarier to me than some snake who will only bite in self defense. Of course I am a white Canadian so I may not understand either phenomenon as well as I think I do.
Also, the Bible says “You shall not test the lord your God.” It might be one thing to encounter a snake in the woods and have faith that the Spirit will not allow it to harm you (no guarantee against heart attacks though!) but quite another thing to go hunting for snake to prove the Spirit is with you. It seems a misuse of that gift, to me. I am not a christian myself and in the course of my explorations into the world of the occult I have seen things far stranger, but people like myself tend to feel that if you have to make a big show of it you have missed the point. I agree with Rita that it isn’t much different from eastern fakirs, and there is a value obviously in learning the discipline of snake handling. However it seems to me that if the Spirit will protect these people from harm because of their faith, maybe they should use that gift to do something dangerous in service to the world instead of merely in service to themselves. After all, is christianity about signs and wonders and self aggrandizement, or is it about clothing the naked and feeding the hungry? Maybe if they can walk unscathed through things that would kill another they should use this to spread the Word in a more constructive way.
I’m not scared of Alabama. I loved the southern US the one time I visited there, though it is an awfully weird place. Martin, don’t be a sensationalist fearmonger. There are scarier things out there than people who play with snakes. How can we learn, grow, progress, live is we cower in a corner every time we see something we do not understand?
Reverend, if I ever make it down your way I am going to visit your church if you will allow a heathen like me in there.
Idnami,
Playing with rattlesnakes and drinking rat poison is not just about theatrics. And the theatrics aspect of the practice also has a purpose, I am sure you know this. This ritual is mainly practice to rid one of one’s greatest fears through spiritual LOVE. People who regularly go into this state are much more likely to make the world a better place outside the church as well. As they regularly have experiences of such an intense level of spiritual love, in between rituals they carry the memory of this and tend to act accordingly. Maybe it is their immense confidence in their faith that bothers people.
I don’t know what led you to the conclusion that people who play with snakes and drink rat poison would not care to feed the hungry and clothe the naked and be constructive in other ways as well. Can’t they do it all? I have met such “crazy believers” and they have been a paragon of kindness, openness and goodness. Maybe if all Christians started handling snakes and drinking rat poison, the world would be a better place.
If it is not done with the intention to show off one’s ego but as a testament to God’s power and if it is not done with arrogant tempting of danger then it is not wrong spiritually. And we are not the ones to decide who has what intentions behind their actions.
It seems you complain that people demonize your faith but you show little understanding and tolerance toward their religion and practices as well. I hope you will meet some nice “crazy” people who will show you that they indeed use their powers to do good work.
Rita
This is just the craziest thing I have ever read. I don’t even know how to think about this Im looking at this in the New Testament and it does say this.
My husband is now convinced we don’t even know about our own faith’s history thanks to this blog. Im beginning to agree.
This is just bizarre.
Are there other things like this that have been kept out of the public eye?
Sarah
This has not been kept out of the public eye, it has been right there in your New Testament all along. Pretty much nothing is kept out of the public eye. As long as the eye is open and so is the mind, one should be just fine.
Sarah
You are alluding to precisely my point. Contrary to what Rita thinks I am not out to bash Christianity or give Robbie a hard time. I am just convinced if you look at Christianity long enough with an objective eye, it reveals itself as a very unsavory system of faith. And I do not say this lightly or flippantly.
This is very hard to do when you have been raised in a manner where it is accepted as a default religion, and like in the place where Robbie and I are from, it is odd not be a Christian as this is equated with good, societal class, social opportunities, etc.
But its not.
Then you couple this with the “fear-mongering ” doctrinal stance that Indami mentions, whether you either believe in Jesus as your savior or your going to hell, it becomes a very effective way to control or influence how people think regardless of how intelligent someone is. People who advocate it like the good Reverend, you or Robbie are in fact being controlled by it. This did not happen overnight – it is a thousand plus year old system that was developed around controlling the minds of people and influencing their political loyalties. This is what it is about at the foundational level.
Rita and Indami are right on a lot of points where they do not see this as the only path to G-d or at least that is my hearts belief.
As a Jew I am heavily influenced by Judaic thought, but in no way even remotely do I have the capacity to think about the Dalai Lama for instance not having a “correct” religion. But… if I was a devout Christian a doctrine would tell me this, much like how Rev. Al thinks I am going to hell. This is not his mind considering things objectively or measuring knowledge against life experiences…this is a doctrine talking through him, hence indirectly controlling him. And it is crystal clear that this doctrine was developed my men who came much after Jesus , did not see him, did not hear him and never met anyone who did.
Think in your own life and professional work you have seen very immoral and incompetent decisions made by political leaders who really, if you stare at it long enough and objectively enough, made them when they were being heavily influenced by Christianity. I need not tell you how many innocent people have perished as a result of this. it is not the person – it is the underlying belief system Sarah and you are caught right smack in the middle of it.
If you and Robbie want to worship Jesus then I urge you to focus on him and learn what he studied, and if it is right for you – follow it. This is very different than the religion called Christianity, and I am not advocating Judaism here.
What am doing is advocating against the INSANITY called CHRISTIANITY.
I am not intolerant, I am opinionated. Big difference, sister. Would you say you are being intolerant in your critiques of Judaism?
I don’t think I have complained once that people demonize my faith, actually. I recall pointing out an argument that has been used in the attempt to discredit other systems of belief including mine but that is different. It is not complaining to acknowledge a thing which is. Why should I complain when someone criticizes something they do not fully understand? That would be awfully hypocritical of me, wouldn’t it?
Actually no one here has said boo against my ideas so I assume everyone is on board with them so far. If this is not the case, speak up people! If I challenge someones beliefs they are just as free to challenge mine. I welcome them to. No need to tippytoe around my sensitivities. You know I won’t.
Also you mustn’t assume that just because I state my thought on a subject that this is necessarily my final opinion on the matter. I am sadly a classic Libra personality and terribly prone to seeing and arguing both sides of a question until I reach a satisfactory opinion. You have called me on this before and I have to tell you it is not a game, it is how I decide what I think of things.
Why shouldn’t someone play with snakes? I never said they shouldn’t, though maybe they shouldn’t. I said it seems to run counter to Biblical teachings to do so. It does. Jesus says do not test God. What are these people doing but testing God? Not to mention engaging in animal cruelty. If you want to poison yourself that is your own business but how do you think the snakes like being handled that way?
If you want to test your faith go defuse landmines or something. Go rescue kids from a burning building. Rescue hostages from terrorists. Bring compassionate relief to a disaster zone. God will protect you. If you have the ability to face such dangers but fear no harm, I can think of a thousand constructive uses for such a power. Scaring a defenseless animal half to death to prove your holiness just doesn’t happen to be one of them in my book. That is self serving and assists no one else, something else I was taught is not a christian way to be.
Now my moral feelings about animal rights aside, I am curious about these guys. Can they pick up a snake any old time, dose their morning coffee with strychnine etc., or is this something that can only be done in a ritual situation? Like the trance preparation for firewalking for example. Because if the use of altered states is required and we know that guys in India who have never heard of Jesus can do the same thing, are we sure we are talking about the power of the Spirit here, or the power of the mind only? Not that this makes it any less impressive, but it would certainly indicate something quite different about the forces at work here wouldn’t it?
I can agree with the beneficial effects of facing your deep fear, but as I said at the start of my last comment, there are scarier things than snakes and greater acts of courage.
Anyway, now we know what Arit was talking about.
Slightly off topic, Rita, the Reverend mentioned Armageddon. You did such a great job on clarifying hell I wonder what your thoughts are on that.
Absolutely nothing can be kept out of the public eye as long as the eye is open and so is the mind.
It’s about perception, comprehension, critical thinking, seeing and understanding perspectives other than your own and not just looking out of your head staring at your nose and go where it points.
Idnami,
I like you very much and I like what you believe even when I don’t believe the same. Libra is the Sign that is the most resistant to accepting other points of view, they argue for the sake of arguing. I am most familiar with this Sign through very close friends and my brother. The only difference between you and them is that they are eager to admit this.
Not only I am not intolerant toward Judaism I stated over and over that I am very much okay with Judaism. In fact I understand it very clearly from many angles; historical, intellectual, emotional, etc. despite John’s belittling me about it. I used arguments regarding Judaism only to show that it has done exactly what John now accuses Christianity with. Also I used my arguments about Judaism to show why they might find Christianity so repulsive. I have stated these points very clearly many times. It is unfortunate that it’s nearly impossible to construct a sentence with the word “Jews” in it without sounding anti-Semitic.
I do believe you have mentioned witch hunt and burning at the stake here and there and observed how suspicious people are toward your faith. I did detect a complaining tone but if you are cool with all that I gladly take it back.
I did say boo against your ideas.
I never said you said they should not play with snakes. I answered about the “testing God” thing. They are not testing God, they are confirming God. And they are practicing being God so they can understand His perspective and be ready when the time comes.
So it seems that, at the moment, you think they should use their magic powers to rescue kids from burning buildings and pluck landmines. But really you must know better than that. You know that this is not how magic powers are to be used. And, again, you don’t know where and how they channel their energy when they are done handling snakes and drinking rat poison.
People in India walk on fire and stick needles through their bodies without Jesus, yes. But not without the Spirit. The Mind can observe, comprehend and manipulate the power of the Spirit, all of which the Mind does using the Spirit’s energy. The Mind is hollow without the Spirit.
I don’t think the snakes mind this practice more than chickens mind being miserably kept and then killed. And if those people are indeed filled with the Spirit in those moments, then the snakes are having the time of their lives.
I don’t assume it is your final opinion on the matter, I hope it isn’t. But we hardly wait for years or until someone’s last moments to hear their final opinion before we reply to comments.
I only lightly touched on the subject of Armageddon in my Hell post. Basically we will have to go through the same relinquishing act but we will not have a chance for working things out through the many circles of Hell and then come back numerous times to improve our minds and souls. We had better be ready. Armageddon can happen anytime and it will not wait for us, only for some of us a little bit (there are always exceptions to every rule) but even that has to be earned in this life. So being ready at all times is very important to those who do not like to leave anything to chance. Native Indians and Buddhists share the same philosophy. Be always ready. This is the same concept with death. We should live every day of our lives as if it were the last.
The big problem is how to tell people what is to come without installing fear in them? It is impossible. They should be afraid but only so that they can confront that fear and triumph over it so they can immortalize themselves before time runs out. Fear is the necessary evil that must be overcome.
And one more insight. People who have experienced God’s Mind might not see the world in terms of right and wrong. And so their focus might just be to try to save as many souls before it’s too late, not bodies, but souls. They are not saying we are going to hell because they are judgmental of us. They are saying we are going to hell because they know we are going to hell unless we give way to the Spirit. For these people above, the Spirit is conveyed through Jesus.
Rita
Actually I think that is precisely how magic powers should be used. I think it is precisely how magical powers are often used. They can be used to lose weight or stop wars as well as for inner transformation.
The point I was trying to make with my original comment was that the Human Rights movement the Reverend mentioned was also evidence of the Spirit at work, far worthier and more significant work.
Look, I am always impressed by people who can handle fire or levitate. I think these phenomena are interesting and inspirational, but not nearly as inspirational as such a great love as Martin Luther King’s rising against such a great hatred as he faced and winning a huge victory for humanity though he gave his life to do so. And before you bring up St. Rita again the difference there is that he did not submit, but resisted and inspired others to resist also. I speak only of what I personally admire.
As for the snake handlers, I have never met one so I am utterly unqualified to say where this leads them in life. Robbie, do you know any? maybe we could invite them to join the discussion.
HOLY SMACKERAL!!!!!!!!!!!
You have got to be kidding me. If you had told me this is what part of christanity was about I wouldnt waste time even tlaking about it. This should be on TV show in a insane asylum not a radio show.
John you were right not one of them could asnwer my questions.
This is just way to weird for me the whole looking around the yard for easter bunnies is kind of weird to and there is this santa claus as jesus thing, but damn SNAKES AND RAT POISON!
DAMN!!!!
I wonder if there are any of these people here in calagry? Your friend Robbie does this wow!!!!! Has he ever been bit???
I dont even know what to think of this anymore.
I am very glad I didnt have to br brought up in a place where all these people were this religion. DAMN I thought drugs were bad …thats nothign compared to this stuff , it in their heads!
And this preach man what is up with this hell BS, like your perfect and all with your snakebiters? Church of true love???????where is the love dude?
OMG OMG SNAKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Mandi
No, Mandi, I do not play with snakes or any other poisonous reptiles; that’s just ridiculous. People doing ridiculously insane things in the name of Christianity is no more indicative of Christianity as a whole than an Islamic terrorist blowing himself up in a crowded market is indicative of Islam as a whole. Let’s not be silly here; I think we are all aware that their are fundamentalist factions in every religion. Staging arguments based on the premise of these factions doesn’t make sense to me. For our friend that is afraid to drive through Alabama because of the “lynchings” and “snake handling” going on down here, be careful in Massachusetts as well, I hear they are hanging suspected witches and such up there.
Robbie
I will mention Saint Rita again. She did exactly the same thing! She changed her husband’s evil ways through her submitting to the SPIRIT. Not to EVIL. Did Dr. King say to black people to go and kill some white people? Did he say, let’s go black people, leave the white people behind and go someplace else? NO! He did not run away, he did not lynch white people. He stayed and inspired people with his message of Universal Love/Law. I don’t think the Reverend indicated that the Spirit had nothing to do with fighting racism, in fact I am sure he believes that it had everything to do with that.
Idnami, I am really, really worried about you now that you cannot see the difference between submitting to EVIL and submitting to the SPIRIT. And by becoming the SPIRIT you inspire change in the world around you. HOW HARD IS THIS CONCEPT? Am I hallucinating? This cannot be intellectual failure on your part. This goes deeper than that. This resistance of yours to such a beautiful, clear, simple and logical idea is frightening! More so than any Armageddon!
I am truly hoping that it is only your Libra resisting of any idea that isn’t yours to the death. I hope you will learn to break your own boundaries for the sake of yourself!
You have just written a note on LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE, not evil and hatred but LOVE LOVE LOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SUBMIT TO LOVE, IDNAMI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rita
Let me remind you that the civil rights war in Alabama and other areas of the American south was in fact a armed struggle. You read and hear only of Dr. King but there was a significant Black panther movement, SNCC, CORE and the armed and deadly Deacons for Defense that emerged as well as the important spiritual voice of Malcolm X.
It is doubtful the progress that was made would have been by peaceful means alone. Unfortunately passive control of American history and media remained in white control and these stories are not as frequently told. You sure as hell don’t learn about them in Alabama history class.
I would even venture to say that if white people had not been killed, and known more would be killed, they would have not released their grip on power one iota. Just like South Africa, except whites stayed in control with the assistance of the FBI and various federal agencies, along with targeted assassinations in the early 70′s.
Wait, I have to apologize because I just reread Rev. Allen’s comment. Reverend, have you done this? I misunderstood you at first.
So if a snake handler has been invited to this conversation and I was too dense to catch that the first time, sorry.
So Reverend, I will ask you direct then, has it occurred to anyone to use this same principle to go into danger to help others? Also what happens to the snakes after church?
This actually reminds me of a story John told me about some Rabbis who went into the Holocaust and confronted the Nazis. They all survived. Now that is impressive action of the holy spirit.
Rita, I am as cool with christianity as you are with judaism. It is also difficult to express objections to one idea without it being construed as intolerance of the whole belief system. I see we continue to understand each other better than we think.
Thanks for the history lesson, John and also for assuming that I did not know all that. This was not kept out of my public eye.
We were talking about Dr. King and Saint Rita. So unless Dr. King encouraged black on white violence, feel free to correct me. The Black Panther movement is pride based and does not shy away from violence. Based on my spiritual beliefs it has compromised the success of stopping racism. We will never know what would have happened with only LOVE. Last time I checked racism was still alive.
Idnami keeps suggesting that submission means submitting to EVIL. I am trying to tell her that spiritual submitting means submitting to LOVE. Like Gandhi, like the Amish and yes, like Saint Rita.
Hello???? Is there anyone out there who can distinguish between LOVE and EVIL?
I love YOU Rita, even when you are yelling at me.
I do not like using words like obey, submit etc. I realize that they do describe something like the principle that you and I agree on, but for me the connotations of dominance and abasement associated with those words make them unfit for such a sacred principle. This is where you begin to see what appears to be a perverse resistance to what you feel we both understand perfectly well. It may be only a millimeter’s difference between a word like obey vs a word like attune, say, but a millimeter can hold a universe worth of difference. It is different enough to be extremely significant to me. What does it mean to attune, to harmonize? Well it does mean actually to cease resisting the vibrations you are attuning to, similar to submission. However it does not mean mortification of self to me but fulfillment of self. Mastery of self. I know that you and I are talking about very similar principles here but they are not the same. The word obey resonates at a different frequency than the word attune. If you could strike a tuning fork to ring out the vibrations of those two words you would have completely different wave forms. The use of one word will create one state of mind and the use of the other will create a different one. I am not being perverse, obtuse or deliberately contrary. I am insisting on making clear a highly significant difference in the vocabulary of your approach vs mine. I do not believe in obedience. I never use that word if I can help it. I think it is a psychologically damaging concept that has led to all kinds of hell worse than any imagined afterlife. I prefer attune. Tension and resistance are required to create resonance. A limp guitar string will not play a note, but I tight one that gives resistance to the player will.
I think you will tell me that you mean the same thing but that word submit stops me cold every time.
The guitar string is tight because it is tightly bound on both ends, that is where its power lies, Idnami. It does not fight against that bondage, it is resisting the player’s attempt at manipulation by holding on to its bondage. This resistance to the manipulation is what creates the beautiful sound. It is the sound of the guitar string’s surrender to its bondage at all costs.
Maybe it is time you stopped looking at the world backwards, Idnami. One must be bound tightly before one can resist.
Maybe it is time to quit arguing against Love. Submitting to Love makes one strong not weak. But if you do not want to surrender to Love because you do not like the word surrender, suit yourself and be a limp guitar string.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/184783
Since becoming the first so-called “rainbow nation,” South Africa has degenerated into a crime infested third world rathole. It has one of the highest murder rates in the world. Almost 1 out of 4 whites have emigrated from South Africa since Mandela came to power.
1.) What do you think is more common in Alabama? Lynchings or black-on-white murders, rapes, assaults, and robberies? We can always check the statistics.
2.) Only a small minority of Christians play with snakes. Most of them live in Appalachia, not Alabama.
I know what’s going on here. Everbody is jealous of people who experience God in such a profound way that they become immune to that which is lethal.
So I hear people are unhappy.
It seems that facts are only right if they hurt the feelings of a certain group of people.
If facts hurt the feelings of another group of people, then they are wrong.
So it’s okay for a guy to say he will not drive through a state because there have been some white on black lynching there in the past (past white on black lynching is fact) and because some people there drink poison and handle snakes (fact).
It is however not okay for a guy to point to present criminal statistics (facts) that indicate what crimes one might actually encounter when driving through that state.
So facts are right as long as they serve one person’s agenda and wrong if they serve another person’s agenda.
This logic and moral are the lowest on the scales of human cognitive and moral development.
Rita, I understand that you are passionate about what you believe and I admire it, honestly I do. We all speak with our own vocabularies here. This is called diversity. We often disagree and this is called individuality. I do not agree with you that God requires the elimination of individuality to get to “heaven” but I am not offended that you believe this.
I do have to say that I find your trying to force your vocabulary on me as objectionable as I would if Robbie or John tried it. I find your sardonic attitude quite entertaining most of the time but you are starting to cross a line here that really need not be crossed. I don’t recall making any personal comments about you or anyone here. I do not need to accuse anyone of complaining or jealousy or flawed thinking to give my arguments weight and you don’t need to either. Stop assuming that anyone who doesn’t agree with you is somehow an inferior thinker, please.
Participation in this discussion does not automatically imply that we will agree with or even approve of the subjects raised but we are all grown up enough to handle disagreements.
Lets try to be a little more respectful and a little less personal, ok?
In an earlier comment to me you accused me of being threatened by others’ opinion. And I will not spend hours to research how many more times you have arrived to certain conclusions about me and my beliefs.
Also, I have clearly stated that there is in fact a way to hold on to one’s individuality and that God does allow such a thing. Maybe you should pay attention.
I don’t have yet another way to say surrender to God and surrender to Love. I am sorry that the concept of surrendering to Love offends you. But in the future I will respect your fear of linguistics or your fear of a particular string of letters.
Yes, I am a passionate person. I speak my opinion with my vocabulary. This is called diversity.
Speaking of diversity. I have said this before that since I was a little child I have been very interested in different cultures, rituals and religions. Therefore I have no judgment toward any of them. In fact I have a deep understanding of how all paths, including Satanism and Atheism, lead to God. My only criticism is toward people who criticize other religions and beliefs using arguments that can also be used to criticize their own religion and beliefs.
The only intolerance I have left is toward intolerance and yes I am working on it.
I will never handle snakes, they creep me out. I will never drink poison. But that does not make me ridicule and criticize people who choose these particular practices to connect with God.
I am not “thinking” that people here are inferior thinkers. Believing that something is right because it serves one’s own interest and believing that something is wrong because it doesn’t serve one’s own interest is the lowest level of human cognitive and moral development.
Psychology 101
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Piaget
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg's_stages_of_moral_development
I also wanted to point out that if you are so serious about respect you should not call guys who handle snakes crazy but I noticed you edited your comment and because of that my reply to you seems a bit out of place. Thank God for time travel.
I am just entering in and please forgive me for not being involved sooner.
I have read many of the comments about snake handling and other. I “believe” that it was said that if you only believe then you can indeed do things that may seem to be extra ordinary. Because of our standard teaching (ref US public education) we also tend to believe that miracles do not occur because an action may go beyond Physics, Chemistry, and Biology. Yet that is not true and indeed miracles happen that go beyond our understanding.
For the great teacher wanted those of us who will accept him to only believe. I kind of like the idea of snake handling. I am exercising the option out for now on actually putting this portion of my faith into action.
Rita, I am not asking you to keep your opinions to yourself, I am asking you not to be quite so bitchy and insulting about it. Can you handle that? Frankly Your version of divine love sounds more like it belongs in an S&M dungeon. If that is your thing that is fine with me. I have no problem with BDSM terminology in its place. But you, lady, are not my Mistress and you do not get to dominate me intellectually or otherwise, so knock it off. What is insulting is your attitude, not the fact that you are critical. How dare you call me to repentance for suggesting that there may be better uses of divine protection than dancing with rattlesnakes and then turn around and rip me and numerous others around here to shreds for any reason? Get off your high horse and practice what you preach already!
I edited one word out of one post because I thought better of it, and it wasn’t crazy. Several others said the word crazy, not me. I don’t think its crazy, I think there are better uses for divine protection than going out and seeking pointless dangers just to prove you can’t be hurt. I think its fine that they can do it, I just wish they would think a little bigger if they can. I made that clear. Maybe YOU should pay attention.
John
In light of the racist tone above and the previous comments about me , please delete my comments on the blog and we will continue our conversation about faith in private. I do appreciate the challenge and I will say it has made me actually look at the facts of my religion. this is a very different issue than my faith and some simply just do not get that. In fact I cannot thank you enough for introducing me to Messianic Judaism.
Sarah
GM
Just curious dude , have you ever actually been to south africa? know anyone thats from there? or is this just what youve read somewhere in alabama?
M
So much for not insulting and not being bitchy.
You called them crazy dudes. I have your original comment in an e-mail. So much for integrity.
I payed attention to what you said and asked you what makes you think they don’t use their power for other things as well. If you read your own comment this is clearly what you insinuated and you still do.
I have repeatedly confessed that most of the time I do not surrender to love, it’s just that I am still able to understand the concept and recognize its value.
Fix yourself a calming potion, Idnami. If potion is spelled differently, I apologize. I am very ignorant when it comes to witch spelling.
That’s funny. You weren’t complaining when my neighbors were being portrayed as ignorant racist hicks who have nothing better to do than to lynch blacks and play with snakes.
Dude…I guess that means your answer is no to my question? I just wanted to add a little perspective to your comment.
Im not complaining I just think its strange. And yes I do think thats a bad place , my god they have killed more black people there than the German killed jews – 75 million! Dont you have a conscious man? WTF?
1.) For the record, I do know someone from South Africa – my friend Gerritt who lives in London, and he can attest to the degeneration of SA. Almost 1 out of 4 whites have left that paradise in the last 15 years (why is that?). Yeah, it’s not as bad as Zimbabwe … not yet, at any rate.
2.) The charge that Americans killed 75 million blacks is utter ahistorical bullshit. I showed that in the previous thread. No respectable historian has ever made that charge. You seem to have pulled that number out of your imagination.
3.) I’m willing to discuss verifiable facts and rational arguments:
- Lynchings are almost unknown in Alabama these days. A black person probably has a better chance of dying from bird flu, dying in a plane crash, or getting struck by lightning than getting lynched.
- In all of American history, there were a few thousand lynchings at most; the vast majority of these were not in Alabama.
- A small minority of Protestant Christians play with snakes. Only an insignificant number of Alabama Christians do so.
- All the white-on-black lynchings that ever happened in America are dwarfed by the # of black-on-white rapes that occur in any given year. I proved that last time around.
4.) I’m normally polite. I accept the fact that my contemporaries passionately believe in all sorts of ridiculous nonsense. I try really hard to tolerate their beliefs and turn the other cheek.
However, if there is one thing that really irritates me, it is people who bitch, whine, moan, complain … over their inability to deal with and accept REALITY – facts hurt my precious little feelings, so waaaaah, demn facts; reason makes me cry, so **** reason.
5.) The inability of some people, at some point in American history, to drink out of a ****ing water fountain or sit in some seat on a bus … is, to be perfectly honest, little more than an inconvenience, not the great world-historial tragedy that you make it out to be.
If I were to visit China, I wouldn’t demand, as an alien, to be treated like a Chinese citizen, with all the rights and privileges that Chinese citizenship entails. Every man should be the master of his own house. The same is true of nations and peoples.
6.) If I lack “sensitivity,” chalk it up to my lack of faith in liberal PC or the various sky fairies that appeared in the hallucinations of premodern epileptics.
John rants angrily against Christianity and no one accuses him of being judgmental.
Rita has an emotional feedback and Rita is judgmental.
John says Christianity is bad because it is a fabricated religion that was created to suit a specific agenda; it distorted Judaism and is based on lies. And no one is calling him anti-Christian.
Rita says Judaism is a fabricated religion that was created to suit a specific agenda; it distorted the religions that came before it and is based on lies. And Rita is anti-Semitic.
John says Christianity is anti-Semitic because it took away the ethnic aspects of Judaism.
Everyone nods.
Rita says Christianity is Universal that is why it took away the ethnic aspect and Rita is an anti-Semite.
Whoever argues that a religion is ought to be ethnic and cultural is not a racist.
Whoever argues that religion is ought to be universal because God breaks all such boundaries is an anti-Semite.
When Rita points out that Judaism is an ethnic religion that is why it is exclusive Rita is an anti-Semite. And when Rita suggests that that the reason why Jews don’t like Christianity is because it is a universal religion and no longer ethnic Rita is an anti-Semite.
Rita makes people think about being judgmental over historical violence as all of that has been predicted in the Bible by a God they claim to worship. And they suggest that Rita approves of past violence.
John himself reminded us in the past that Judaism does not judge evil as it was also created by God. And then John goes into a rant on anti-Semitic Christianity and how the Holocaust was Christians’ fault.
Rita points on his hypocrisy and Rita is an anti-Semite.
Rita asks John not to talk about the Torah here because many Jews find that objectionable and Rita asks him to respect his own faith and also Rita doesn’t want John to lose the support of the Hasidic community.
Sarah says: “no, John keep sharing the Torah”. So much for her respect for Judaism and her concern for John.
Sarah has been revealing intimate personal details about herself and John, and tells how John was a juvenile delinquent and draws the conclusion that John has been the most ethical and compassionate person his whole life. And Sarah is our moral compass.
Also, the only person who attacked her over being personal is Mandi who herself has been personal since she joined the blog. She is our other moral compass.
Rita points out their hypocrisy and Rita is told to be respectful and not get personal.
Rita calls Mandi out on hypocrisy when she judges her own spirituality differently than that of other people’s. And Rita is disrespectful and personal.
Terry says crazy ass God and calls Christianity a black eye on a religious website and no one says anything.
Idnami’s comments are full of assumptions about what people think and feel when they make judgments. No one says anything.
When Rita points out Idnami’s inconsistency Rita is disrespectful.
Idnami gives me a metaphor to support her argument and Rita points out that the metaphor actually supports Rita’s argument and Idnami gets all mad and suggests that Rita is into S&M because Idnami cannot get over linguistic barriers.
Could Rita get away with suggesting Idnami is into kinky sex? I didn’t think so.
So much for being respectful and not getting personal.
GM offers neutral statistics that hurt some people feelings and He is a racist.
When pseudo-facts are offered that hurt other people’s feelings those are True and Rightous.
Rita defends GM and now Rita is a racist.
Rita reminds people that judging certain actions of their own as being right and actions of others they agree with as being right while judging the same actions as wrong in others is the lowest level of cognitive and moral development. It is not Rita’s judgment. It is a widely accepted basic psychological concept.
Many people have been judgmental, personal and disrespectful on this blog.
When Rita points to their hypocrisy, Rita is asked to get off her high horse.
It seems I would have to lose my brain and my moral judgment if I wanted to get off that horse. And then I would have to mingle with people like these. So no, I think I am gonna stay up here.
By the way John, I would like to congratulate you on creating mayhem. Mission accomplished!
And before you all accuse me, he admitted that this was his goal. Highest ethics and compassion.
GM
You stated ” 2.) The charge that Americans killed 75 million blacks is utter ahistorical bullshit. I showed that in the previous thread. No respectable historian has ever made that charge. You seem to have pulled that number out of your imagination.”
Unfortunately sometimes our minds and the cultural / societal guilt associated with certain topics make truth very hard to accept.
I will remind you Dr. Cornel West is one of the most widely respected intellectuals in American history, his scholarship is unquestionable as represented by the fact that Princeton hired lured him away from Harvard recently both having offered him full tenure initially to even consider teaching there. I would highly recommend his book Race Matters or ay of the recent books written by Dr. Robin D.G. Kelly at U.S.C.
I will as well urge you to study the research of the WEB Dubois Institute at Harvard, The University of Virginia, The Amistad Research Center at Tulane University and Dr. Gwendolyn Hall’s research that has been supported by the University of Louisiana Press.
I think after doing this you can offer a more informed opinion to refute Mandi’s use of this number.
Here is a online link to quote from a essay in the below referenced book where the number is used. http://www.mariabuszek.com/kcai/PoMoSeminar/Readings/WestDiffrnce.pdf
[Russel Ferguson, Martha Gever, Trinh T. Minh-ha, and Cornel West (eds), Out There: Marginalization and Contemporary Cultures (New York, The New Museum of Contemporary Art; and Cambridge, MIT Press, 1990).]
MIke:
I actually found the book by Dennis C. very in depth on this subject. He approached this subject as a “fallen un-believing Christian” who after immersing himself in this for a while rediscovered his personal faith. So it definitely has great power. Yes its odd or weird to people unfamiliar with it but that in no way negates the sincerity or power of this practice.
You said “I kind of like the idea of snake handling. I am exercising the option out for now on actually putting this portion of my faith into action.”
Ok it explain how you would put tis into action. Plus elaborate on how testing faith works and what it does for you. this is interesting!
John
Robbie – Mike – Indnami – Rita
It strikes me as Mike is onto something here about “testing faith” Im not sure Judaism has such a concept or practice – tradition. Are there other examples of this in Christianity? The first thing that comes to mind when I ask this is the Catholic rituals in Latin America where men are in a parade and whipping themselves. Doing penance I believe??
Maybe we can discuss this a bit.
John
John,
I think we enter a very dangerous arena when attempting to personally test our faith or God. It’s not incumbent upon God to prove Himself to anyone. There has never been an occasion where I have found it appropriate to test my faith. Moreover, there are plenty of hardships that I have endured that have served this purpose without me adding to them.
Rita, my dear, let me say something.
I do not claim to be perfect or to know all the answers. I don’t think anyone here does. We are all just talking. We can disagree and misunderstand each other and still have respect. I felt very pushed yesterday and I let you have a little of your own back. It seems you didn’t like it so lets try to tone down the judgments.
Incidentally, not that its anyone’s biz, but you could accuse me of being into kinky sex and be 100% correct. But I had major objections to the terminology of power exchange in a sacred setting long before I ever knew what sex was. I feel I stated my reasons for this clearly enough. I feel they are good reasons. At any rate this stance is not likely to change.
Rita, I respect you and I have enjoyed the past few weeks of conversing with you. I have never had quite this kind of relationship with a woman and I value it, even when you are acting all superior to me. It didn’t really hurt my feelings, I just wanted you to see how it felt.
Oh and I did in fact address to john the idea that his antichristian attitude may in fact be no different than what he perceives as antisemitism.
John, I have a better Idea. How about we get off the christian bandwagon for awhile? How about we let the christians tell us about christianity if they want to. How about you tell us about judaism. I will talk about occultism. GM can talk about atheism. Guess what you guys! the Judeochristian paradigm is NOT the only thing in the world. Its just easy to talk about it because it causes so much emotional reaction. However there is a whole big huge world out there of other stuff to talk about. I am going back to that. I swear if you guys refuse again to address what I share with you in favor of bickering some more about christianity I am leaving here and never coming back, and that’s a promise. I don’t want to be a bitch about this, but I refuse to waste anymore time trying to connect with you guys if someone besides Rita doesn’t help me keep the ball rolling. Ok?
[...] is relying upon Cornell West as his source that 75 million Africans died in the slave trade. The charge [...]
Hey to all.
I do not see this as testing God. This is a question of belief it is the stepping out on faith. The occurances of things that happen that are beyond our abilty to explain.
I will continue.. If I believe it to be so.. then is it not so?
-Maggots are spontaneously generated from the air on rotten meat.
-The Earth is really flat and we have been brain washed to believe it is round.
-If a dying person is having chest pain and falls to the ground you may revive them by taken a reed that is hollow and turn the person over exposing the rectum. Place the reed into the rectal area and blow smoke into the anus.
-When a person shall be found guilty of said crimes they will be placed on public display. Shackeled around the head and arms. It will be displayed that these indivduals were F found U under C cardnial K knowledge. ( Just put the four letters together. )
What I have noticed..and I could be wrong.. I have been before.. what seems to be the basis of expression of each of our positions is from what we “believe” to be true. What we faithfully practice.
This I know. At certain times we have control over death. We can influence its time and its arrival. This to me is Gods grace in the ability to practice choice. To believe or not to believe. To follow by Faith or not. To be or not to be? (Borrowing this one from a very popular author.)
I am only asking do you believe enough? What is your point of bias? Are you sure?